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deadlock is we one The Premier- It not impossible at Thar may be deadlock be tween the Common and the Senate and get over It the beat way canno provisions whatever be to a difficulty would not be at apprised if to rvlsing Our constitution such a provision eluded It would be a good way of get ting oyer the difficulty A Vexed Quertloti If a referendum how do you account fox it acceptance by the House of In the ease of Australia Then Sir John continuing It seems to Be that the question of prohibition is one of those vexed question which affect to deeply the social and moral conditions of the people at large that it can pro perly bo taken out of the category of ordinary subjects which can be best solv ed by the wisdom of the Legislature it self And further on he the whole object of a plebiscite a well as a referendum is to obtain such a com plete decision of the popular will aa will enable the Legislature to deal definitely with a question on which the is great variance of opinion I need not read the whole of this paper It all on the line that hare indicat ed the three great constitu tional authorities that I have mention ed the action of Australia and then there is the opinion of Sir John Bour- Wmsflf that in this or any similar matter we are quite within our rights that it la a legitimate thing and it would not be an unconstitutional pro cedure for us to adopt a referendum or take the opinion the electors as to whether such and such meet with their approval and that opinion being expressed in the terms laid down by Parliament then the proclamation of the Crown should Issue bringing that effect The Privy Council There is another argument which Is very strong to my mind and that is the opinion of the Privy Council given in the case of the Queen Hodge where the Privy Council declared that the powers of the Provincial Legislature were within its own jurisdiction as full and ample as the powers of the British House I will just quote one sentence When act enact ed that there should be a Legislature for Ontario and that its Legislative As sembly should have exclusive authority to make laws for the Province and for Provincial purposes in relation to mat- enumerated in section it con- powers not in any sense to be exercised by delegations from or as ag ents of the imperial Parliament but authority as plenary and as ample within the limits prescribed by section as the imperial Parliament in the plenitude of its powers possessed and could bestow Limitation of Powers effectual ijorking end permanent main tenance of ah enactment that electorate of Canada first pro nounce a on the subject at the Mr to donmi that it as or an pro ceeding to a matter of kind directly to the people of the country Hills always regarded a a high constitutional author ity and a proof that regard he now to my great delight a seat on the Supreme Court Bench Be says I admit that it an undesirable course to take In a majority of cases because there is no circuity in majority of instances in enforcing a measure which Is the statute book but this Would be a sumptuary law and it requires a general coopera tion Of the community to give if effect I do not think a greater misfortune could befall cause of total abstinence than the placing on the statute book of measure which Would be inoperative Then Sir Louis now of the Supreme Court also spoke He said It is said to be that there is no precedent for it Well sir I am not aware that it is absolutely essential that we never should take any step in this new country unless can show an English precedent for it but we can show precedents in other countries in Switzerland as my friend reminds me- Hard to Keep Under Now is there amy inference to be drawn from that definition of our powers as a Legislature except that we can do here within our own constitutional limi tation anything that the British House of Commons can do will hold that the British House of Commons could refer a hill to the electorate Great Britain That would be to put a limit upon the great est Parliament in the world a that has legislated not only tor the United Kingdom but for the great- eat empire in the world such limi tations exist the British constitu tion If our powers are coterminous within our own legislative jurisdiction wih what the British Parlia ment can do in Great Britain then we within our constitution can do in the Province of Ontario anything Great Britain can for the United Kingdom And this view sir confirmed by the judgment of Lord In a noted case arising out of an act the Gov- India A Lord judgment will make this point clear So says Where plenary powers of legislation exist as to particular subjects whether in an Imperial or in a Provincial Legis lature they may in their Lordships judgment be well exercised either ab solutely or conditionally Legislation conditional on the of particular pow er or on the exercise of a limited entrusted by the Legislature to persons in whom it places confidence is no uncommon things and in many cir cumstances It may be highly conven ient lowers of the Province If we passed this bill and it became law on tbe signature of his Honor the LieutenantGovernor that would be passing it absolutely If Lord judgment correct we could alto pass it- conditional upon the vote of the electors that is on the use of particular powers or on the ex ercise of limited discretion Indeed a limited discretion entrusted by the Legislature to persons in whom it place confidence that- Is electors and in many instances it may be strongly defended You have therefore strong evidence leading up to the view I to start out with that our act was not I could quote too Canadian authorities dm of them bearing as closely oil the subject as those have already quoted others a little remote In Air Flint who was leader of the temperance movement In the House of Commons spoke on Hint was not In the same subject for it seems hard to keep it tinder up again in the House of Commons on a motion of Mr Charlton in which Mr- Charlton asked that the question be referred to the electors of Canada at the polls Speaking on- this question Sir John Thompson said I not submitting as the gentlemen seem to antici pate that there are constitutional involved Sir John Thompson did not raise constitutional objections He said have doubt we can ana our constitutor in that re spect as we please so he had no doubt as to the constitutional process But he says feel very confident In the assertion that such a mode of action is utterly repugnant to prin ciples we have adopted and olloweH with zeal down to the present time Sir Wilfrid the same de bate says t agree to a large extent the Justice that the system of referring a question or in any question to a plebiscite is not harmony with our institutions I would rather see this question and ail other of in did manner that by The gentlemen and all peo ple who look at this Question must admit that in this in stance there might be ah made Rules exist but there are few tula to which there la not an fexce This question of temperance and prohibition is one which might well he disposed Oi In this manner 1 doubt if you can have any better of ascertaining the views of the country at large and therefore I would favor the reference of this question to th people not that would do it is a general rule but as an exception which might pro perly apply under the circumstances again Mr Mills in six or seven years after his first expression of opinion on the question referred to the same matter when the bill for the plebiscite was before the of that year There the question was raised as to the propriety of such a course and as to its constitutional effects Air Mills speaking in the in said Ordinarily the work of legislation ought to be carried on by Parliament and the Government ought to assume the re sponsibility of determining what they propose because in a great many in stances the questions that a Govern ment they are pledged to and that they are called upon to deal with are ques tions with reference to which the elec tions have turned Now this Is not an ordinary question of legislation arid no question relating to a sumptuary matter can be because It is not What is best in the abstract but it is what the people are ready to sustain that ydu are bound to determine W be restrained by bands that have moulder years ago and to their original are In the living present We bare the re- of living legislation before us and the tail reatation of that larger sens of manhood which inherited from our f anosophm Xipeulenti That leads ma the next J the referendum a mode of procedure which one might reasonably expect to meet with the approval of thoughtful men Legislation to be effective and to maintain its dignity must keep within the lines of- the best thought of the people If we are too conservative we are discarded and very if wo are tooi radical we may introduce rerolutions and changes which will be Very disturbing and very golden mean in leslatjon must be our aico Does the referendum commend itself to those who have given It thought the leaders of the great movements which are crystallised in legislation have no less an authority the ftemler of England Lord Salisbury on point Salisbury and I be lieve that anything on a like this conning from a man such as Lord Salisbury is full of thought and Lord Salisbury believe nothing could oppose a bulwark to popu lar an arrangement lor deliberate and careful reference of any matters in dispute to the people like artiBgemeni the united States and Switzerland commend these three or four lines to the thought ful attention of the member Of the and the people of the We are apt to be use a vulgar in legislation and to be in opinion by the In tensity of the advocates of any particu lar opinio We are apt to lose that judicial poise which a should always maintain if it is to deal rightly by both parties who are to be affected by legislation the One hand we Constitutionality of the Referendum Further evidence shows that arid and all Who had in in fact for the tett or fifteen years either by their vote or by their speeches accepted the constitutionality a referendum If therefore nuking a departure we are It on high legal sanction the of the British House of Commons of the Australian Commonwealth the sanction of the Canadian House of Com mon the sanction of the great leader in constltutlonaUlaw aides of the Atlantic We are making it to a certain extent Which are Involved In legislation of kind and be rather disposed in a way to echo the view expressed by Sir Lout that we must hot allow ourselves to be too strongly bound by precedents Preee dents are useful in steadying the decis ion of the court and therefore useful too in legislation but we passI Was almost going to say dally in bills for which there has been no pre cedent Is society to grow how are liberties of the people to expand you are to alt down and study musty volume after musty volume in order to ascertain out or great- have the temjerance thoughtful moral pureminded earnest anxious to see this world blossom out la beauty and freshness and we have ease presented with sucr intensity I shall not say emotion as to be al most overcome by the arguments as well as the illustrations used On the other hand we have those in the trade who say The trade is our life we depend on it for our existence They see no barm in it To destroy it would be to turn them on the streets to make gars of wealthy men and they bring before us the result of absolute prohibi tion We have to stand midway be tween these two parties They are both citizens the motives of one may be purer than of the other some of you may but that is not the question we have to consider The question we have to consider la how so to legislate that while we pro mote the moral influences tho temper man advocates we do not inflict a moral wrong on the other man whose business we are disposing of and in this case this view has had a great deal of weight with mo in thinking oyer the responsibility of a referendum A Singlechamber House This is a single chamber there is no body to be appealed to from this body In the Dominion there Is a Senate the object of a second chamber In all legis lation is to steady the more volatile pub lic opinion which will find an expression in the lower House If you will read the debates on confederation or the history of the House of Lords you will find that this Is the view presented by the o a second chamber In the Unit ed States the complications arising but of the existence of a second chamber are greater perhaps than in Great Britain and yet you will see that in United States hasty legislation is more strongly guarded against than it is under the British system and consequently the American constitution is less elastic than the British We are the only Province In the Dominion that started out with a single chamber We have guided legis lation on the whole wisely prudently and with some little regard to conservative public opinion We have In this instance to see if the pressure use the word In a proper that is brought to bear on us by thoss who are anxious for this legislation Is a pressure endorsed by the electors in their minds and judgment There Is othei body stand between us and the elector to give this question a though and for that reason there is a good deal of force the view analysis have to tain con sequence for good or have an opportunity expressing opinions upon It Opinions have mentioned what Lord SaEsr bury said on the question of of the Coaster with Lord The leaflet Issued ixom the Central Con servative previous to campaign the Items of the- party A firm Imperial policy a strong navy the referendum I am aura that the Conservative party England has in the past moved as slowly as any party could move and exist do not know but It I going somewhat slowly still on some political questions hut notwithstanding its and its conservatism on general principles it has accepted as one of its party planks the referendum On noma questions I have also a quotation from Sir Lecky member of Parliament and author of Demoeraoy and Liberty in which he points the advantages of the sndumi referendum would have the immense advantage of en ogling issues separating One great question from the many minor questions with which it may be mixed Confused or blended Issues are among the greatest political dangers of our Jims It would bring into action the opinion the great silent classes of the and reduce to trua ipvetilnt to party eofn- of noisy have given a fictitious prdjnihence Of America that When the referendum takes root In a country it takes political question to an Immense degree out of hands of makes it possible to de cide them mainly though hot wholly on their merit without producing a change of Government or Of party pre- I bare also the opinion of Mr Stiaehey the editor of The tondbn Spectator lie most democraUa measure conoelvable is the referendum No one who Upholds that institution can be accused for a moment of not trusting the people or of falling to ac quiesce In the principle that the people themselves constitute the ultimate sov ereign power In the nation That is the true touchstone The man who refuses to agree on the referendum may be a good Jacobin one that is who holds certain abstract view a sacred but he be true to the essential prin ciples of democratic government Miss many year Resident- of the Womens Christian Temterance a woman of culture and of great Insight said Of the referendiuu i believe in direct legislation and think It is so greatly needed that language cannot express the dire necessity under which we find ourselves The reign of the people Is the one thing that my desires to ace The reign of tho is a publio ignominy I also believe that direct legislation is certain to become the great political issue in tho immediate future The people are be ing educated by events They are com ing to see that there Is no hope for re form under the existing system of vot ing It is the duty of every to carefully this great question Just a word from a famous American Br Lyman Abbott editor of The Tn my judgment the remedy for tho evils of democracy is democracy a appeal from the few to the many from the managers to people I believe in the referendum and within limits the initiative because it is one form of this from tho few to the many from forces of ab stract democracy to democracy that is the rule of the people Is the to introduced brio Australian to make the- referenduia part of the but Aat was before- of the Commonwealth so that these have not bees acted upon Popular the States United State I onatitu- amr4dment- State of the Union except Delaware has the power to make amend- in that been to people In every one of these cases so far as I can ascertain they are approved by a twothirds majority The constitutional amendments are not only approved in this way but various other matters are approved in this way lit fifteen of the States ho law changing the location of the capital valid with out submission to popular vote in seven States no law establishing back ing corporations In eleven States so law for the of debts except ing such a are specified In the constitu tion In Use In Canada Too now entertain that id a question Ike this partaking somewhat a character and in which there is such intents religious Involved and sometimes zeal perhaps outrun good sense of the individual with regard to both of the does seem to me there ought to be some way of getting at the cairn judicial thought of the whole people or shall I say neutral body or some other body that will give the subject sober second thought and will that sober second thought without any regard to the consequence involved We are to a certain extent influenced and in the main primarily by the effectIt should have on our various We ought not to try to get Away too far from that principle on which I think the of British Institutions depends of occa sional l frequent appeal to the elect ors hie of the great plank of the Chartists was triennial Parliament bringing the House of Commons to three years We ikmSmih I admit that In tho minds of some of the gentlemen of this House they ugon the referendum with some lit tle fear and dread After all what Is itt iV- Abbott says Democracy and yet more democracy It but trusting to the electors It is but re moving tho sphere we may bo unduly Influenced by deputations to a sphere where each man may governed only by his own thought and tho responsibility which every voter feels with the ballot in his hands express that opinion with out fear favor or affection If that procedure would strengthen consti tutional government the sooner It adopted the better If that feature would a more Judicial opinion upon a question upon which It is hard under the present condi tions to get an opinion the sooner wo adopt It the better Then we have many precedents I will not refer to the ex ample of Switzerland Australia a tew years ago had the referendum on sectar ian education on the Bible in the schools on grants to denominational school Then referring to my own ex perience of the great commotion that waa caused In country In 18BV1 think it was In on the subject of the In the school ana sorry that we did not then the referendum on that question when I think of hate and religion bigotry and that were apiealed to and the strife of re feeling that entered into that When I think of the hard think that Were said on both aides particu larly on one I do if that tuld The- referendum ha been very exten- sivelv used in Canada also For instance wo have the re ferendum in many municipal mafc- In school matters if thoVtrua- tees have doubt or diffioulty as to the location of a school then a referendum is held as to which site it shall be and so on Wo have had it in connection with Dun kin set which was introduced iij and in the Scott act in 1678 We have had local option on our books A referendum was taken Prince Edward I aland in in Manitoba the same year and ple biscites have been taken In Ontario in Nova and over the whole The precedent for the referen dum accumulate as we look them up A referendum was taken In sixteen of the United State on the question of prohibition alone so that the referen dum Is sustained by numberless prece dents as the proper course to pursue under certain circumstances and certain ly as the proper course In regard to all legislation affecting the liquor traffic I need not therefore fortify the action of the Government In considering this question of referendum any further by precedent They are overwhelming in every quarter of the globe in Australia in the United States j even In England a few years ago Sir introduced what Is called a local option law to become operative unless voted against by twothirds of the ratepayera Lord Randolph Churchill had a similar bill Sir Henry had one also There the Welsh bill and the Scotch bill Sir bill and Randolph Churchills bill all involving prin cipal of the reference to the people We are therefore fortified In the views we are taking by the strongest precedents The Basis of the Vote We now to one of the crucial points in connection with bill lv hand What should be the basis of the vote In a case such as we are now considering On what basis should the judgment of people be accepted as their ultimate complete and conclusive judgment I want to examine this point closely In the light of opinions from ev era sources Tho referendum has gen erally been carried by a majority of the electors voting for it In the United States when prohibition was first in the various States such was the case but when It was embodied In the constitution of the State and made permanent it has been In four or five States It became operative only on a vote of a twothirds majority Some municipal bylaw are operative only on this large majority of twothirds The McCarthy act which was introduced In the House of Commons In and which was afterwards declared ultra vires provided that local option should only bo operative on a threefifths ma jority therefore have the example of the United State In regard to changes In constitution of the vari ous States and the example of Mc Carthy act adopted by House of Commons when Sir John was Premier calling for a threefilths ma jority In case of a permanent enact ment affecting the liquor traffic Be sides we have the evidence and the opinion of some of our strongest itten Hon Alex Mackenzies In whon the question of pro was before the country the late Hon Alexander Mackenzie then Pre mier speaking at Cdlborne said I have always taken the ground that until sentiment has reachedsuch an ad vanced of maturity that wo would be quite certain of a very large majority in favor of such a measure it would be unwise and impolitic to attempt to enforce a total prohibition of the liquor Mr Mackenzie you see aid that to enforce it a large majority would be necessary In the was and the measure was before the Senate one of the strongest whom I have bad the honor to and who for many years wail President of the Dominion Sen ator was anxious that an easy mode be provided whereby the bill could be put into force In the Pro vinces or in other words whereby we could have Provincial prohibition as wall as prohibition by counties arid dues and speaking on that view of tho ease he I ani that less this measure receive i i Opinions of V Another distinguished leader the temperance movement in the same refer to late Senator lanTtneTed molding that it enforced by a majority of the whole number of a Of the House of Another wellknown man fton- Mr Carripbeil did not lay af fected and property of a cer tain of the should be enforced by a bare majority of the votes Senator Dickey It would be a great misfortune to undertake to put thl law Into force in any community where there not a decided prepond erance in favor it not erance of the active people who chose to go out and cast their vote and exercise themselves on this question but a decided of whole body of the elector- These are the of prorninant Ben- atora and tome of them active sniper- ance men Mr whan tho subject was before House of Com mon repeated- in substance the statement have just quoted He said hifl mind had always been that the conununlty had- a perfect to itsli by a law of tKla kind On tie other hind he quite admitted that there was almost an absolute necessity that there should he a strong if not opinion in favor of the enactment A measure which apparently the members of any Use general grounds affected whole community and for this reason he would never favor the enactment of a prohibitory law which was not subject to the teat of vote of the people until he was satisfied that there was an majority of the whole community in favor of such a measure 1 Sir Experience Among those Who spoke on the sub ject of prohibition In the House of Com mons debates in and with had the honor of a place In the House In my esrly Parliamentary career Sir Leonard regarded l by all we early temperance as the ad- of temperance and prohibition par excellence The proposition was be- fore the House of Commons on motion Of Mr Foster iThat this House ia of opinion for the- reason hereinafter set forth thdt the right and most legislative remedy for these evils is to be found In the enactment and en forcement of a law prohibiting the manufacture and sale of in toxicating liquors for beverage pur poses toi which an amendinerit was moved as follow And this Is of opinion that the publio sentiment the people of Cnnadl calls for late to that end Sir Leon- afd Tilley apoke against the resolution and in so doing related some of his own experiences He became Premier of New Brunswick In and a prohibi tory law It was not in operation more than six fact I do not know whether It was in operation so long that when Leonard owing to action of had a dissolution of House forced upon him An election followed and Sir Leonard and many of col- league were defeated and only two or three df tUose who supported the pro hibition were returned Speak ing from a wide experience and with an earnest that hi word should be helpful to the temperance cause Sir Leonard afterwards in to the resolution said after recit ing his own experience can the of ah gentleman voting against the last amendment as a temperance man and a prohibitionist because as such he would seem Incon sistent and noticed cheers when my name failed as voting against the Immediate adoption of prohibition but I did so because I believe It Is In the Interest of temperance that we should not enact a law that will not be en forced I apeak with the I had thirty years ago and have had ever since When the convention was held In Montreal I wa written to by one of the leading friends of temper ance asking my opinion I was unable to be present but I wrote a letter la reply which letter Mr Ross read at a convention held In Ottawa What was the opinion I then expressed I stated that If they decided to submit the pro posal to the popular vote they should not suggest less than a threefifths vote because it carried by a bare majority and Without publio behind it the taw would fall and the cause of temperance would be damaged Instead of benefited If a prohibitory law were enacted I am satisfied it could not be enforced and nothing could do more damage to the cause of prohibition than the enactment a law followed hy its and ul timate repeals It Would then take us a century to get Wok to our Perhaps it could hot be other source in greater confidence an- ixfreasln for giving an experience of twentyfive or twentysix Wart in- tie temperance movement in its up and downs now nd ebbs in Canada and the Unit ed State and it worthy the moat careful i A Majority Required Another active of With I a prohibitory must have a great majority behind not only of those who voter but of all who have In this country It wa weakness In the Scott act that for its adoption only a of the votes cast It would been far better if It had required a ma of athose entitled to vote he cases very little interest was taken in the election and the ma of the voter were not represent ed The law sjust have a great ma behind it to bo effective It is use placing such on the statute book by a bare majority in fact would be opposed to it And ha In similar strain in 1898 A Preponderating Sentiment And then I have a quotation from Foster In in which he takes a s liar view I will trouble the leading as little of it as may bo to put his before you Mr Foster in said l that believed in the feasibility of a law under certain conditiona are these conditions I will name one That Is the condition which Iowa as a logical sequence a aary deduction from what I have jurt been stating that before a prohibitory law ought to be enacted and before It can be inaintawed so as to do good la the country there must necessarily be the basis of a strong and preponderat ing public sentiment in its favor In or der not only to lead to this enactment but to tend to its enforcement as well and I say again what has been quoted a reproach to tea and I say it boldly and earnestly that that man Is no true friend of the temperance cause or prohibition movement who will enact a law today if ha does not firmly in heart that that law finds Its re flex In the overpowering conviction of preponderating and active majority la the country In favor not only of He en actment but enforcement as well that he would do the worst possible the cause of prohibition to snatch a ver dict for the enactment of the law and find out afterwards If It were not a reflex of such preponderating senti ment in the country that it would be come a dead letter on the statute boor a byword in the community and a re proach to the very temperance men who favored its enactment In a Judicial Mood- He repeated similar In with which I will not trouble House Now these views are views of tem perance men and I am not giving them with regard to their politics at all be cause they are not of on shade of poll tics but I am giving them in order that we may endeavor to put ourselves in a judicial mood and that tho country should endeavor to put itself in a judicial mood and consider when such a law being submitted and considered by electors if the sentiment in favor of it Is preponderating is so great to give It vitality and efficiency men whom I have mentioned were some them are leaders today and those who leaders necessarily study pub lic opinion and must necessarily give thought to every legislative act which thoy are required to consider The thoughtful opinion of these leaders is in the direction that a large and preponder ating majority la required and no snatch verdict because In New Brunswick and some other cases a snatch verdict result ed disastrously to the temperance cause Another circumstance indicates the necessity for calmness We have had the act oh the statute book since It is enforced In only three municipalities I mentioned in my open ing remarks that something municipalities gave no tavern licenses That was the action of the License It was not felt that thejr were required But only three munici palities today after or 38 years with the act keep that act as bylaw operative within thelt j border Acts Effect The Scott act was carried in twenty six counties and in two cities and It was repealed in all It was carried by ma jorities aggregating In round numbers and repealed by majorities ag gregating the same amount so the there was a very decided change In pub ifc opinion Now the Scott act Is not be underestimated nor discredited as teinperatfce factor yet it la Very diaap- pointing to find It cast aside in every Instance where it was adopted The feet of the Scott act was educational and It may done a great deal of good but as an efficient means for repressing the liquor traffic or arming the of the law with the power which It sup- to afford them the Scott act as been discredited has been found in effective and has not excepting in an educational sense don any particular good This is another reason why should proceed some deliberation and cate Prohibition in tho United States And then as says History Is philosophy teaching by experience We might regard the United States in relation to prohibition There Hon was carried in sixteen States and is operating now In five A very cur ious record of and downs has prohi bition had in the great republic to south of us In Delaware it was repealed after two year In Rhode Island after eleven year Massachusetts had two trials of sixteen years and another of six years and repealed it Connecti cut repealed it after eighteen years Michigan twenty years Iowa has given It two trials extending over years Indiana three year Illinois two a South Dakota eight So that in- Un united States It would appear that this move had it ebb and flow It sometime a tidal wave sweeping thing out of its Way 1 then came a I do nut know that these fever isn and emotional expresaionsof opinio are the best after all- for thaweHar of the commonwealth I would rather a a steady educational process n aching inch by Inch upon whatever we wanted to remove and holding every Inch of the ground and the inch of today an of I ah make a ft